In two recent group meetings, our abbott, Soryu Forall, offered us a chance to ask him questions about accusations made in a recent social media post by former community member JS. We are sharing those recordings because we believe we are in danger of being attacked further by JS.
I have found most clarity in the reminder at the end of the video that "only you and I know."
I write this after reaching out to contacts I have made at MAPLE who asked for public support. I do this with a great fear of repercussions from anything related to this, given I have plenty of identifying information within my account. I do this because I told them I would support them and this is what was asked.
Having lived on the internet, I struggle with online discussions' tendency towards recency bias, to believe the claim of victim, and this drive towards being amenable. In fact, this post is a challenge to all of this as being late to respond, countering they are the victim, and refusing to be agreeable. So that makes me question where is the justice in all of this nonsense, in what looks like a race to the bottom. (I can already see actually that you're trying to not make this a race to the bottom by addressing the accumulation of many online allegations.)
I have recently learned of an inversion of meaning for justice; western concepts focus heavily on punishing the aggressor. Another step towards justice would mean reparations for the victim. What I found most complete is finding a way to live in accord with another. Could MAPLE share what happening towards a pursuit of justice?
edit: a later review has helped me see that MAPLE has offered a third party mediation for this, but the other parties have not accepted.
Woah, scary stuff. World spinning is a dangerous endeavor. Disney World isn't a safe place, even though it seems harmless. To let someone believe their deep delusions is cruel. It is good that you are pointing that out.
It’s not lost on me, a trans person and someone loosely formerly connected to MAPLE, that this post both unnecessarily mentions JS’s gender identity and does so immediately preceding discussion of his mental health. While posting someone’s intake form information seems like quite a breach of privacy in itself, to also seem to link that information to someone’s trans identity feels egregious. I fail to see how this constitutes right speech or compassion in any way. I’m also amazed that MAPLE continues to display absolutely no acceptance or accountability of any wrongdoing whatsoever.
Your friendship has been valuable to me and others here. Please extend it to me now.
JS's name is publicly tied to his financial account, which he willingly posted in a public place. Everyone who knew JS here knew him as a woman who went by 'she' pronouns. We're not in denial of this fact.
On the other hand, JS and his supporters have berated and silenced the voices of our friends online, repeatedly using verbal abuse. This goes beyond the pale. It's not okay to use a trans status as an excuse to berate and verbally abuse people into attempted silence and fear. And so we choose not to succumb.
I've also seen trans people who have used their chosen identity to get away with criminal behavior, to make it harder to identify them by hiding under pseudonyms. If you haven't run into this yourself, I mark you as fortunate. I've known people do unspeakable evils. Please allow us to protect ourselves within reason. I do not think we've committed anything heinous given our real fear for our own safety in this situation, and I think the case is strong. Trespassing and stalking are not to be taken lightly, nor is verbal and emotional abuse.
On the other hand, I am friends with many, many trans people who would never do any of this. There is no hard and fast rule about trans-ness that can be followed without falling into a trap by those who are willing to abuse that rule. Thus, all decisions we have made using care and consideration for /everyone/, not just JS himself, and not excluding JS himself.
We were selective in what we shared, to only share what we believed was necessary to make a legible case for those who have doubts and need some evidence. This is for an audience who will likely never interact with JS. On the other hand, many many relationships with us are badly harmed by JS's behavior and continue to be harmed. Repairing that harm means setting the record straight.
MAPLE has made numerous adjustments to improve over the years. These aren't fully publicized, but if you're concerned there's something we have overlooked, please do share.
You know me personally, and you have met our teacher. Would we really stand for wrongdoing and hold our ground in favor of unethical behavior? Would we really stand for falsehood?
Your points on discussing JS's psychiatric history and sharing some of his training application answers are significant. After considering them extensively, we have updated the post with an addendum. It addresses your comment, so here it is below for your convenience:
These were not choices we made lightly.
Part of the consideration was the impact of JS’s actions. He purported to “expose” Soryu as, among other things, abusive, narcissistic, and a former sex addict. In support of that aim, he made many claims about their private interactions. While we believe these to be highly distorted accounts, nonetheless they were an attempt to reveal private and intimate details. Some of those who heard his recording thought it was wrong to divulge things shared in confidence. However, more people found those details persuasive enough that this negatively affected their relationships with Soryu and our community. It seems apparent that they did not consider it to be wrong, or that consideration didn’t matter much. To our knowledge, no one protested his psychological labeling of Soryu.
So is it wrong to share personal details, including psychological conditions? This question may seem pertinent, but it is really a distraction. What is undeniable: **this is a powerful move.** Therefore, it must be possible to use it with wisdom and compassion, for spreading the truth rather than lies, and resolving conflicts rather than creating them. That is how to make it the right thing to do. Otherwise, those who wish to serve the world in integrity with wisdom and compassion are disadvantaged due to being denied such a power used by those of less integrity.
We at MAPLE are willing to take on the responsibility of showing that it is possible.
In this, we are again inspired by the Buddha’s example. He denounced his own cousin in public, and told his monks to do likewise because this cousin and monk, Devadatta, attempted to create division in the sangha. Various stories reveal that the sangha was not averse to taking measures to protect its reputation and togetherness, often through revealing personal details of individuals that behaved this way and outing them in public. He also had to address controversies around such measures. The discourse With Prince Abhaya is a crucial teaching on this: https://suttacentral.net/mn58/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin
For the benefit of our community and all living beings, we have committed to acting in accordance with the Buddha’s teachings in this matter. While we anticipated that some might be dismayed that we discuss JS’s psychological condition, we prioritized giving everyone access to crucial facts regarding factors underlying his actions. This is not in order to protect ourselves or Soryu, but to protect the Dharma. In support of that intention, we show JS’s own words to provide relevant evidence that we're not making things up.
None of this vilifies JS. If anyone responds with ill-will or derision towards him, or wishes him harm or suffering after reading this article, that only says something about their own mind. It is possible to respond with sympathy, care, and the wish for him to be free from suffering due to obstructive patterns, like MAPLE has done from the beginning of our relationship. Sometimes that means daring to say what is relevant and true, even if it brings up negative reactions.
It saddens me to see the content coming out of MAPLE lately. It only ever confirms for me that you all are not practicing Buddhism. A student of the Dharma would not write about individuals the way you all do. Perhaps you would focus on the character of the place and its mission as you see it. But dragging past students, residents, and "friends" through the mud because they walked away from that place with a different experience or perspective than you? It's a form of retaliation that only makes you seem more guilty of the accusations. And it's certainly not Buddhism and every post you put out proves this to those with eyes to see. May you find joy in the root of suffering and someday choose to heal. May you have the courage to reckon with your own actions and behavior. I assume you will hide my comment the way you did the other one that held a similar perspective.
I have found most clarity in the reminder at the end of the video that "only you and I know."
I write this after reaching out to contacts I have made at MAPLE who asked for public support. I do this with a great fear of repercussions from anything related to this, given I have plenty of identifying information within my account. I do this because I told them I would support them and this is what was asked.
Having lived on the internet, I struggle with online discussions' tendency towards recency bias, to believe the claim of victim, and this drive towards being amenable. In fact, this post is a challenge to all of this as being late to respond, countering they are the victim, and refusing to be agreeable. So that makes me question where is the justice in all of this nonsense, in what looks like a race to the bottom. (I can already see actually that you're trying to not make this a race to the bottom by addressing the accumulation of many online allegations.)
I have recently learned of an inversion of meaning for justice; western concepts focus heavily on punishing the aggressor. Another step towards justice would mean reparations for the victim. What I found most complete is finding a way to live in accord with another. Could MAPLE share what happening towards a pursuit of justice?
edit: a later review has helped me see that MAPLE has offered a third party mediation for this, but the other parties have not accepted.
Woah, scary stuff. World spinning is a dangerous endeavor. Disney World isn't a safe place, even though it seems harmless. To let someone believe their deep delusions is cruel. It is good that you are pointing that out.
It’s not lost on me, a trans person and someone loosely formerly connected to MAPLE, that this post both unnecessarily mentions JS’s gender identity and does so immediately preceding discussion of his mental health. While posting someone’s intake form information seems like quite a breach of privacy in itself, to also seem to link that information to someone’s trans identity feels egregious. I fail to see how this constitutes right speech or compassion in any way. I’m also amazed that MAPLE continues to display absolutely no acceptance or accountability of any wrongdoing whatsoever.
Dear Zen,
Please hear me.
Your friendship has been valuable to me and others here. Please extend it to me now.
JS's name is publicly tied to his financial account, which he willingly posted in a public place. Everyone who knew JS here knew him as a woman who went by 'she' pronouns. We're not in denial of this fact.
On the other hand, JS and his supporters have berated and silenced the voices of our friends online, repeatedly using verbal abuse. This goes beyond the pale. It's not okay to use a trans status as an excuse to berate and verbally abuse people into attempted silence and fear. And so we choose not to succumb.
I've also seen trans people who have used their chosen identity to get away with criminal behavior, to make it harder to identify them by hiding under pseudonyms. If you haven't run into this yourself, I mark you as fortunate. I've known people do unspeakable evils. Please allow us to protect ourselves within reason. I do not think we've committed anything heinous given our real fear for our own safety in this situation, and I think the case is strong. Trespassing and stalking are not to be taken lightly, nor is verbal and emotional abuse.
On the other hand, I am friends with many, many trans people who would never do any of this. There is no hard and fast rule about trans-ness that can be followed without falling into a trap by those who are willing to abuse that rule. Thus, all decisions we have made using care and consideration for /everyone/, not just JS himself, and not excluding JS himself.
We were selective in what we shared, to only share what we believed was necessary to make a legible case for those who have doubts and need some evidence. This is for an audience who will likely never interact with JS. On the other hand, many many relationships with us are badly harmed by JS's behavior and continue to be harmed. Repairing that harm means setting the record straight.
MAPLE has made numerous adjustments to improve over the years. These aren't fully publicized, but if you're concerned there's something we have overlooked, please do share.
You know me personally, and you have met our teacher. Would we really stand for wrongdoing and hold our ground in favor of unethical behavior? Would we really stand for falsehood?
For me, there is no way. No way Jose.
Please leave room for skepticism and unknowns.
Your points on discussing JS's psychiatric history and sharing some of his training application answers are significant. After considering them extensively, we have updated the post with an addendum. It addresses your comment, so here it is below for your convenience:
These were not choices we made lightly.
Part of the consideration was the impact of JS’s actions. He purported to “expose” Soryu as, among other things, abusive, narcissistic, and a former sex addict. In support of that aim, he made many claims about their private interactions. While we believe these to be highly distorted accounts, nonetheless they were an attempt to reveal private and intimate details. Some of those who heard his recording thought it was wrong to divulge things shared in confidence. However, more people found those details persuasive enough that this negatively affected their relationships with Soryu and our community. It seems apparent that they did not consider it to be wrong, or that consideration didn’t matter much. To our knowledge, no one protested his psychological labeling of Soryu.
So is it wrong to share personal details, including psychological conditions? This question may seem pertinent, but it is really a distraction. What is undeniable: **this is a powerful move.** Therefore, it must be possible to use it with wisdom and compassion, for spreading the truth rather than lies, and resolving conflicts rather than creating them. That is how to make it the right thing to do. Otherwise, those who wish to serve the world in integrity with wisdom and compassion are disadvantaged due to being denied such a power used by those of less integrity.
We at MAPLE are willing to take on the responsibility of showing that it is possible.
In this, we are again inspired by the Buddha’s example. He denounced his own cousin in public, and told his monks to do likewise because this cousin and monk, Devadatta, attempted to create division in the sangha. Various stories reveal that the sangha was not averse to taking measures to protect its reputation and togetherness, often through revealing personal details of individuals that behaved this way and outing them in public. He also had to address controversies around such measures. The discourse With Prince Abhaya is a crucial teaching on this: https://suttacentral.net/mn58/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin
For the benefit of our community and all living beings, we have committed to acting in accordance with the Buddha’s teachings in this matter. While we anticipated that some might be dismayed that we discuss JS’s psychological condition, we prioritized giving everyone access to crucial facts regarding factors underlying his actions. This is not in order to protect ourselves or Soryu, but to protect the Dharma. In support of that intention, we show JS’s own words to provide relevant evidence that we're not making things up.
None of this vilifies JS. If anyone responds with ill-will or derision towards him, or wishes him harm or suffering after reading this article, that only says something about their own mind. It is possible to respond with sympathy, care, and the wish for him to be free from suffering due to obstructive patterns, like MAPLE has done from the beginning of our relationship. Sometimes that means daring to say what is relevant and true, even if it brings up negative reactions.
Thanks for this comment, Zen. I feel the same. 🙏🏼
It saddens me to see the content coming out of MAPLE lately. It only ever confirms for me that you all are not practicing Buddhism. A student of the Dharma would not write about individuals the way you all do. Perhaps you would focus on the character of the place and its mission as you see it. But dragging past students, residents, and "friends" through the mud because they walked away from that place with a different experience or perspective than you? It's a form of retaliation that only makes you seem more guilty of the accusations. And it's certainly not Buddhism and every post you put out proves this to those with eyes to see. May you find joy in the root of suffering and someday choose to heal. May you have the courage to reckon with your own actions and behavior. I assume you will hide my comment the way you did the other one that held a similar perspective.
We've added an addendum to the original post that addresses this.